Transcript: Speaker Nunez and the 2005 Special Election

I firmly believe that the governor is not a right wing extremist. I don’t think the governor is an- is an an- anti-democrat. I don’t think that he’s an ideologue. But the ideologues in the party are taking advantage of this governor. And I firmly believe that.

McRee: And so he would say that the unions and the people who have traditionally -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - had great power within the Democratic Party are sitting on your shoulder and whispering in your ear.

Núñez: Well, uh, people whispered in our ears. But nobody’s sittin’ on our shoulders. Nobody was sitting on our shoulders when we negotiated that workers comp agreement, that trial lawyers and unions didn’t want, uh, mind you. And nobody was sitting on our shoulders when we decided to agree with the governor to make severe cutbacks on public-service programs, including programs to the elderly and programs to other constituencies that Democrats have always cared about.

McRee: The governor told us that you almost had an agreement worked out, though, that could’ve worked all those initiatives out, could’ve done it together, without the $50 million special election, and the union party bosses told you no, and that they believed, with $100 million to hurl at the governor, that they could seriously damage him and it could be a winner take all game.

Núñez: You know, I, I will tell you this, uh. What is true about the statement you just made, Lisa, is that the governor and I came very, very close to crafting an agreement on all of the governor’s reforms, or so-called reforms. We came very, very close. The problem was that when we came to the very, very end of this agreement, and obviously there’s no question that the unions didn’t want it, but neither did the Chamber of Commerce.

The people on the left didn’t want it, but the people on the right didn’t want this agreement either. Ultimately, I believe that the Pete Wilson people succeeded.

McRee: You named names, the Pete Wilson people. Do you think that some of the governor’s agenda is left over agenda from the Wilson administration?

Núñez, overlapping: No. I think the governor’s agenda is, has gone beyond, uh, the Wilson agenda. I think it’s, it’s the Bush and agenda in California, and I think -

McRee, overlapping: Oh, but come on. He’s -

Núñez: I think it’s, uh -

McRee: - he’s run contrary to the Bush Administration.

Núñez, overlapping: No, no, no. Let me tell you. Let me - He’s gone to the right of the Bush administration on many issues. I’ll give you an example.

McRee: Stem cells, environment?

Núñez: Well, the stem cell issue is a very popular issue among Californians. That’s an easy call. Seven - Over 70 percent of the Cal- of Californians support it. But let me give you an example. President George, uh, George W. Bush, about a year ago or so, when these groups along the border began to, uh, organize themselves, calling themselves the Minute Men, to patrol our borders.

President Bush, at the time, said these are militia groups that don’t, that don’t have a place in our borders. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger embraced them in California when they came here.

McRee: He actually was on a right-wing talk show, on a radio show, and then after that, clarified himself to me, as well, saying, look, I don’t believe in vigilantism. I’m just expressing the frustration. And if you, these people want to give support to the border, I support that.

Núñez: Look, I don’t think the governor is anti-immigrant. But the fact of the matter in, on certain issues where the Republican Party needs him to be to the right to give him cover, he goes to the right. But it just so happens that a lot of these are important bread and butter issues. Another example, education.

Why would anybody in their right mind think that in California, where per pupil standing is concerned, we’re 43 out of 50 in comparison to the other states, that you want such a conservative, budgeting policy that you’re willing to make across the board cuts that would disproportionately impact education adversely.

McRee: You’re talking about Prop 76.

Núñez: Yes.

McRee, overlapping: Specifically. So for those who haven’t read their voter guide yet, and I’m sure they will any second now, Prop 76 is state spending and school funding initiative.

Núñez, overlapping: Right. Mm-hmm.

McRee: And what it does is it, it gives the governor broad powers with a big red pen if you guys don’t work out a deal after 45 days, uh, which does require two-thirds vote, which is very difficult to get.

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: And attached in that bill is a tweak to Prop 98. Now, the governor told us -

Núñez: Yeah.

McRee: - that he believed, since the people voted for Prop 98, -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee, overlapping: - that the people should have the right to, to modify it, to change a sentence or two if it’s not working perfectly.

Núñez, overlapping: Right.

McRee: Sounds very democratic, doesn’t it?

Núñez: Well, it sounds democratic to modify it. The modification that the governor wants to Prop 98 is downward, not upward.

McRee: I want to give you what he says. He says we didn’t have a plan to [SOUNDS LIKE: repairy] that $3.8 billion. Now we have a plan, 15 years. We’ll pay this much a year. Um, why is that a bad thing?

Núñez: Well, ’cause he wants to slow down the repayment of the money we owe public education. But the $2 billion the governor promised to restore, in public education in this current fiscal year, he walked away from that.

McRee: But prop 98, the tweaking to Prop 98 -

Núñez: Yeah.

McRee: - that’s inside of Prop 76, -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - uh, why is that not a good idea? That, that protects us from this roller coaster of school funding, doesn’t it? I mean, it, it prevents us from having to constantly be raising the floor every time we give a gift to education during flesh times.

Núñez, overlapping: That’s the fallacy, the, of, of the governor’s argument, that we have this, you know, roller coaster funding on education. Sometimes it’s up. Sometimes it’s down. All one needs to look at is the fact that here’s what 98 is in a nutshell. 98 is a promise that we adults have made our children, that out of 40 percent out of the state’s revenues, every year, are gonna be dedicated to education. And we’re gonna guarantee that. We can do more.

McRee, overlapping: But that is not the sticking point, Speaker.

Núñez, overlapping: We can do more..

McRee: - the problem with this formulaic spending plan -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - particularly Prop 98’s case, is that, specifically, it, it means that any time, in big flesh times, -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - as Gray Davis did, -

Núñez: Right.

McRee: - you give a big, fat gift to education, -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - that becomes part of the new floor. You - The next governor’s, in perpetuity, -

Núñez: Right.

McRee: - whether we are in an Internet bubble or an Internet bust, -

Núñez: Right.

McRee, overlapping: - have to maintain that level of gifting.

Núñez, overlapping: That level of funding, that level of funding.

McRee: Le- level of funding. But it was a big, fat gift when we were in big, fat times.

Núñez: That’s right.

McRee: Well, we saw what happened in California. How can we know, year to year, that, that we’re gonna have the money to pay for it.

Núñez: Here’s, here’s how - Here’s how we know. We make the sacrifice, because education is a huge priority for Californians. Everybody in this state, I think the majority of folks, agrees that the only way we’re gonna be competitive in the global marketplace is that if we prepare and have the best trained, best educated workforce that California can provide. And so where education is concerned, what this formula currently has done, the formula that you call the big fat gift, let me tell you what it is. It’s very simple. This formula has helped California, at one point, move up the ladder to be 33rd or 34th in per pupil spending.

McRee: Um, do you think Prop 98 is flawless?

Núñez: I don’t think Prop 98 is flawless. I think that the flaw in Prop 98 is that it doesn’t have a trigger that ties it to the national average. We ought to find education, at the very least, at the level of the national average. Prop 76 does just the opposite. It forces funding cuts to public education, as opposed to tying it to the national average.

McRee, overlapping: Why should teachers have almost instant tenure? You don’t have tenure. I don’t have tenure. H- Nobody else in California hardly has tenure.

Núñez, overlapping: I thought everyone that works for California Connected has tenure.

McRee: [LAUGHS] Uh, yeah. Well -

Núñez: Well, I need to have a conversation with those folks. [LAUGHS] Well, l- no, on, on a very serious note, you know, the tea- teaching profession is, is one of the most important professions in California. Uh, it doesn’t pay very well. But it is an important profession, because that’s how we prepare our children to be successful.

And so if you’re gonna extend the period of time by which to allow them to have tenure, we’re gonna have a horrible time recruiting new teachers in this 21st century.

You don’t need a new law to extend the probationary period for an additional two years, because that’s what this tenure is.

Núñez: That’s not a way to recruit people into that profession.

McRee: You have children. I have children. I’ve seen amazing teachers. I’ve seen lousy teachers.

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: Why should the lousy ones -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - get the same protections as those really good ones? How is that fair to the good ones?

Núñez: Well, look. The truth is that we lose teachers by the third year. We lose over 65 percent of the teachers. A lot of those folks that we lose are very, very good teachers. We’ve got to find a way to keep the good ones, not to focus on the bad ones.

*

McRee: Prop 77.

Núñez: Yeah.

McRee: Why shouldn’t everyone supports the governor’s redistricting plan?

In 2002, assembly Democrats lost two legislative districts, because we have in play eight to twelve competitive seats. By the year 2004, when I was Speaker of the Assembly, uh, we ran some pretty strong races. And in that fall of last year, the governor endorsed against us in many of the seats. They raised over $20 million to defeat Democratic candidates. They couldn’t defeat us. So now what are they doing? They want to change the rules of the game. They want to change the rules of engagement, which I don’t have a problem with if we’re going to allow an independent commission to draw these district boundaries.

McRee: You don’t believe judges are independent?

Núñez: Well, you should, we should ask the voters whether the voters of California trust three retired dru- judges to draw the district boundaries. And the fact of the matter is, is, for the most part, if you look at it, I think close to 80 percent of retired judges are male. And they don’t represent California’s diversity, not their political views, and certainly not the ethnic diversity in California.

The fact of the matter is that these three judges would not be accountable to anybody.

McRee: So the citizens don’t have to, to ratify and approve it once those things are redrawn?

Núñez, overlapping: Well, they redraw the boundaries and then they put it before the voters for a vote. So what is a voter of California gonna do?

McRee, overlapping: Well, you just said if the voters - I mean -

Núñez: They’re unaccountable in drawing the boundaries. Ultimately, define a plan, then put it before the voters. But how many voters, uh, in the state of California do you know are demographers and are gonna sit down and study the district boundaries for 37 million people in the state?

McRee, overlapping: We’re, we have only sa- safe seats in this, uh, state, which means that only extremists tend to get elected. Moderates don’t stand a chance. It’s whoever can preach the loudest to their own choir, basically.

Núñez, overlapping: Well -

McRee, overlapping: That leads to gridlock. Why is it not a good idea to shake that up? It wasn’t always this way. The safe seats saying it’s not -

Núñez, overlapping: I say - I’ll tell you -

McRee, overlapping: - historically accurate.

Núñez: I’ll tell you what. I say let’s shake it up.

I support us taking the power from politicians to draw the district boundaries. I say let’s put something on the ballot that allows an independent commission of demographers and, and college professors to sit down and draw it.

But let’s do it right.

McRee: Your plan, your idea of a more perfect plan sounds like a great idea. Why didn’t you do that with him before we got this far down this road?

Núñez, overlapping: Uh, actually, we - try and avoid the, this nasty election on November the eighth. We talked about redistricting. We are in agreement on what it would take to get us, Democrats and Republicans, together to agree to a new redistricting plan. The one on the ballot, Prop 77, isn’t it. Once we defeat it -

McRee, overlapping: Why?

Núñez: - we’ll put another one on the ballot.

McRee: But why? Why not get the right one on the ballot?

Núñez: Because we were not able to negotiate agreements on all the other areas.

McRee: And so you shut down everything. If you don’t get everything, you shut down everything? Is that how it works?

Núñez: Well, the governor wanted, uh, uh, a whole, uh, you know, and an agreement that dealt with all the other issues. Uh, didn’t want a piecemeal agreement.

*

McRee: People have said that redistricting is something that voters just don’t care about.

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: Is that true?

Núñez: I, I agree with the notion that voters do not care about redistricting. They don’t know what redistricting is.

McRee: But if redistricting is something that’s going to make democracy function better in the state of California, shouldn’t you get out there and make them care?

Núñez: We’re gonna make them care. But here’s what we want to do. We want to get the word out to voters first that Prop 77 is not the answer.

McRee: I’ve got to give you the theory that’s, that’s out there among people who really know this stuff, that leaves a very bad taste in the mouth, which is once the governor made those missteps in the fall and labor unions started spending money -

Núñez: Mm-hmm.

McRee: - to damage him, -

Núñez: Mm.

McRee: - you were so confident, the Democratic Party was so confident that they had bruised him enough that they didn’t feel like they had to deal. And once he had that Prop 75 thing out there dangling, there was absolutely no way you were gonna deal with him.

Núñez: Actually, the governor didn’t get behind Prop 75 until couple of weeks ago. Um, the fact is, is that, you know, he’s had his differences with a lot of the, uh, uh, teacher groups and, and peace officers and state employees and all the other groups, the nurses and everyone else that he took on, uh, and, and they’ve had a pretty tense relationship. Uh, I feel that our relationship, the Legislature, with the governor, has been a pretty good relationship.

When his, he, his polling numbers were, what, in the thirties, uh, maybe 38, 39 percent, I was in his office and at his home, trying to negotiate an agreement with him.

McRee: You don’t look at his polls?

Núñez: We all look at everybody’s polls. But we have nothing to brag about. We’ve got a lot of work to do. Uh, to, to -

McRee, overlapping: You’re down there with him in those numbers.

Núñez, overlapping: We’re, we’re right there with him.

McRee: But you’ve got to tell me, honestly, -

Núñez, overlapping: Uh, this whole conversation has been honest.

McRee, overlapping: - do you believe, do you believe, really, that when the governor started getting hammered about the widows and orphans thing by the unions, that that was deserved or that he just put out a poorly written policy, maybe made some rookie mistakes in drafting, and didn’t vet it properly, and there was ambiguous language. Do you, do you believe that? Or do you honestly believe he was trying to take away pensions from widows and orphans?

Núñez, overlapping: I don’t know. I, I, I, I mean, honestly, Lisa, I can tell you -

McRee, overlapping: You know the guy.

Núñez: I don’t know whether or not he himself directly was trying to take away benefits from widows and or- and orphans. I don’t think the governor read any of his initiatives. I think it’s the governor’s political consultants who brought him the initiatives and said, look, here’s how we’re gonna package the reform that we need in California. Here’s what you’ve got to do, and your Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger, your unstoppable, you’re gonna be successful, you’re gonna transform this state, and every Republican across the country is gonna want you to be the next president of, of this, of this country.

But at the end of the day, do I believe that the governor, uh, wrote those initiatives? I don’t think he wrote ‘em. Were they ill-written or was he ill-advised? There’s no question in my mind, uh, that this governor was led down the wrong path by his advisors. But he has to take responsibility for his actions. Just like I have to take full responsibility for mine.

*

McRee: Why do you think we’re really having this special election?

Núñez: Um, I don’t know. I don’t think this special election, uh, should have been scheduled for November the eighth. I think all of these initiatives could’ve waited until June of next year.

McRee: You don’t think, ’cause if you don’t, you’re the first democrat I’ve talked to who doesn’t. You don’t think that Prop 75, the potential for really damaging democrats’ long term ability to gather money from unions for political purposes, isn’t really why we’re gonna have to vote?

Núñez: Well, the governor didn’t endorse, uh, uh, Prop 75 until a couple of weeks ago.

McRee, overlapping: And you take him at his word?

Núñez: I take him at his word. This is not one of the governor’s initiatives. But I’ll tell you what. I don’t think that it’s fair to say to one interest that it’s outspent 24 to one by corporations, that you ought not have the right to have a place at the table, uh, in the legislative process, while corporate America continues to have undue influence.

McRee: The problem is, it sounds very democratic to say that you have to get my permission before you spend my money on some candidate I may or may not support.

Núñez: Well, that’s, that’s, there’s nothing wrong with that. And, and that statement that you just made, Lisa, is actually true today under current law. Any, uh, teacher or state employer or firefighter can choose on his or her own terms.

McRee, overlapping: But they have to be proactive. They have to pursue it.

Núñez, overlapping: Well, well, yeah. They have to pursue it. But it’s, it’s a simple decision. Everyone has to make their own decision.

McRee, overlapping: I’ve had teachers tell me, though, that there is pressure not to do that, because you, uh, become a second-class citizen within the union.

Núñez: Well, I think the majority of the teachers will revolt against any union president that doesn’t advance their interest collectively. Because they have elections.

Q: Do you think that the people in the back room who’ve been advising him are saying we waited for this for a long, long time? You have a golden opportunity here, take it.

Núñez: I think w- what some of the Republican advisors and those that are strong, uh, qu- Republican party advocates and ideologues within that party, see Governor Schwarzenegger as a tool to move the Republican Party front center on the burner in California and make California a Republican state.

McRee: Is that a yes, then? You think the Republicans have been pushing 75?

Núñez, overlapping: Oh, the Republicans, no question, are pushing 75. They figure if 75 passes, they can get the upper hand with corporate contributions, pharmaceutical industries that take advantage of senior citizens, big oil companies, big insurance companies, take all their money, and -

McRee, overlapping: And do you think that’s influenced the governor?

Núñez: I think that the Republican Party’s agenda has influenced the governor. Yes.

McRee: Speaker, let’s talk about the legislative session.

Núñez: Okay.

McRee: Your kids get report cards.

Núñez: Yeah.

McRee, overlapping: What would your report card be for this last year?

Núñez, overlapping: Well, hey, listen.

Núñez, overlapping: We deserved a C-plus, a C-plus, and I’ll tell you why. Even though the governor has been traveling up and down the state, saying that the legislature’s out of touch and he actually agreed with us 76 percent of the time, because he voted and signed 76 percent of our bills in this legislative session. We actually got some decent work done. And let me -

McRee, overlapping: So then how can you say he’s moved so far in the right -

Núñez: He has.

McRee, overlapping: - that, that, but yet -

Núñez, overlapping: [UNINTELLIGIBLE].

McRee: - given you 76 percent of what you wanted with the pen?

Núñez, overlapping: Well, but, but the 76 percent are, are some of the things that we were able to accomplish in the big picture. The more important issues, he did not sign. That’s why he has a one hundred percent.

McRee, overlapping: Sounds like you want everything.

Núñez: Well, no. Think about it. He has a one hundred percent voting record with the California Chamber of Commerce, uh, and at the same time, the most important bills that we delivered the governor, he vetoed. We didn’t negotiate the transportation bond so that we could provide people with more time spending at home and less time spending in our crowded highways and roads and congested, the, uh, freeways.

Uh, we weren’t able to, to deal with, with that investment in infrastructure in California. Uh, that wasn’t, uh, uh, done. Uh, we didn’t deal with the healthcare crisis. We sent him a bill that said that every kid in California ought to have healthcare insurance. And the state will have to fork out the money to do so, because we know that in the long run, it saves California money. The governor vetoed that bill. But I have to say, we really did everything that we could to try and avoid this.

McRee: Did your - Um, I mean, it was a historic opportunity. But don’t you deserve fifty percent of the blame?

Núñez, overlapping: I didn’t pick the fight. I didn’t pick the fight. I would deserve 50 percent of the blame when I pick the fight. If, if, if a schoolyard bully comes up to you and pushes you around, and you defend yourself. You go to the principal’s office. Should you take 50 percent of the blame? You didn’t pick the fight.

McRee, overlapping: I don’t know. What did you say to that bully to make him slug you?

McRee: Okay. All right. Good. Uh, Don [SOUNDS LIKE: Perot] called this legislative session a waste of time. Why shouldn’t voters be fed up with all of you?

Núñez: Well, you know, he - I’ve heard other - Some folks have said this was a wasted year. I don’t think this was a wasted year. Uh, people invest a lot of their time, spend time away from their families, uh, in a very honorable profession which I consider that of the governor and of every member of the legislature. People work hard, democrats or republicans.

McRee: One of the reasons some say you may have your job is because people with a lot of history have been termed out, John Burton, for example. If John Burton was still around, some think that this would all have been worked out before the election, because he was tough enough to stand up to the governor, but also tough enough, if there was a smart deal to be made, to stand up to his own party and to the unions and tell ‘em to back off. Any truth to it?

Núñez: Uh, I ask John Burton for advice every step of the way, uh, because I know that, uh, in his experience, um, the wisdom that John has brought to this process was, uh, I think, wisdom that, uh, certainly I, uh, value.

But it was not, uh, I should say, um, the opinion of John, at least when I talked to him, that I should have had such a good relationship with the governor, through the legislative year. So I think that, given the opportunity to continue to be in the legislature, I don’t think, to be very honest with you, that John Burton would’ve stood side by side with the governor and tried to negotiate a deal. I really don’t.

And I, uh, went above and beyond the call of duty, and I took on everybody, including the unions, to try and reach an agreement. Uh, I don’t think that those who will, who want to lay blame at my doorstep, uh, either they don’t know what actually happened, or, clearly, they don’t want to face the music.

McRee, overlapping: Just -

Núñez, overlapping: Because I believe firmly that the other side, and it wasn’t the governor personally, ’cause he wanted an agreement, but the other side, uh, uh, pulled the plug on this, uh, at the eleventh hour, because they did not want to see the governor be viewed, in California, as a deal maker, a moderate Republican who can work with Democrats, because that, perhaps, wasn’t gonna, uh, help the party advance its own agenda. And I am totally convinced of that.

McRee: The people who had his ear?

Núñez: Absolutely.

McRee: They’re driving him?

Núñez, overlapping: I’m not gonna say they’re driving him. He makes his own choices. Uh, he’s an adult. Uh, he’s, he - Yeah.

McRee, overlapping: But you just said you think he wanted it, but they didn’t, and it didn’t happen.

Núñez, overlapping: Well, they convinced - They convinced him. I don’t know that they made the decision for him, but they convinced him, uh, to, to try, uh, and go too far.

McRee: The governor told us yesterday that both you and Senator Prada have been down to his office and said you’re looking forward to working with him after the election. Is that true?

Núñez: Absolutely. There’s no, uh, uh, question that after this election, and I’ve said to the governor, win, lose or draw, uh, let’s, let’s get back on our feet and let’s work on things that really matter for California.

McRee: I hate to ask again, but, again, why couldn’t you guys have just done it first -

Núñez: We -

McRee: - and kept goin’?

Núñez: We tried. We tried. Um, but, you know, this is, uh, in, in the business of politics, uh, logic doesn’t always, uh, dictate results.